Jeremy Lent: Can humans build a (beautiful) new civilisation?

Summary

Sarah Wilson and systems thinker Jeremy Lent discuss how society might move beyond the current economic and cultural order toward what Lent calls an “ecocivilization.” Their central claim is that the existing system is not simply malfunctioning: it is doing what it was designed to do—concentrating wealth and power while extracting from people and the natural world. Building a different civilization therefore means changing the system’s underlying values and institutions, not merely trying to make the current one more efficient.

What an ecocivilization would mean

Lent describes an ecocivilization as a world system organized to help all beings thrive on a regenerating Earth. It would contrast with a system centered on extraction, exploitation, capital accumulation, and human domination of nature. Its features could include:

• Limits on extreme wealth and less concentration of economic and political power.
• Businesses accountable not only for profit but also for people and the planet.
• An ecocentric outlook that recognizes humans as part of, and stewards of, the living Earth.
• Decision-making power placed as close as possible to the people affected by it.
• Stronger community, collaboration, and mutual care, so that everyday life is less defined by insecurity and competition.

Lent argues that such a society would not necessarily feel alien or radically unfamiliar. It could feel more like ordinary human life organized around belonging, contribution, and connection.

Why “there is no alternative” is persuasive

The speakers challenge the idea, associated with Margaret Thatcher’s “TINA” slogan, that capitalism is the only workable system. Lent says this belief has become self-reinforcing: even efforts to address social and ecological problems are often framed as needing to work through the existing system—for example, by seeking profit-driven investment.

He argues that the current order’s cultural dominance is maintained not only through force, but through institutions and influential voices that repeatedly present it as natural or inevitable. This makes alternatives difficult to imagine. Lent’s book, he says, gathers examples and ideas that already exist rather than claiming to invent a complete new system from scratch.

Civilizational change and phase transitions

Lent identifies major shifts in human history, including the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherer life to settled agriculture and the later transformation associated with the scientific revolution and modernity. These changes altered how people lived and understood the world. He suggests that today’s transition could likewise be comprehensive, though its path and timing cannot be predicted precisely.

Drawing on complex-systems thinking, he describes a broad pattern:

1. A system remains relatively stable for a time.
2. It enters a release or unraveling phase, when established structures loosen or break down.
3. A more chaotic reorganization phase allows new arrangements to emerge.
4. A new pattern of growth and relative stability may follow.

The unstable period can be frightening, but it can also create openings that were unavailable while the old system remained tightly established. Lent uses the image of a caterpillar’s transformation: new “imaginal” cells form in a chaotic cocoon, initially facing resistance, then gradually connect and help organize a different form. He describes these emerging, mutually reinforcing efforts as “islands of coherence” in a sea of disorder.

Shared meaning, cooperation, and “fractal flourishing”

Lent argues that large-scale transitions need a shared story or manifold of meaning: a common sense of purpose that different people and groups can act on in their own ways. Historical transformations, he suggests, have involved a guiding idea that unites diverse work. The task now is to develop and keep alive ideas for a more life-centered society before a crisis makes change unavoidable.

A core principle of that society would be fractal flourishing. Fractals are recurring patterns across different scales; Lent applies the idea to social life. Individuals, communities, and larger systems should be organized so that each can flourish by contributing to the flourishing of the systems around it. This contrasts with a zero-sum model in which one person or group can gain only by making another lose.

Lent also emphasizes cooperation and mutually beneficial symbiosis as major drivers of life’s increasing complexity. He challenges the assumption that humans are fundamentally selfish, arguing that human beings evolved highly cooperative capacities. Flourishing personally, he adds, is not necessarily in conflict with helping others: taking care of one’s own wellbeing can make it easier to contribute to the wellbeing of the wider community.

Examples of alternatives already in practice

The conversation highlights examples that Lent sees as practical “islands of coherence”:

• Mondragon: A large worker-owned cooperative network in Spain’s Basque Country, with roughly 80,000 workers. Lent presents it as evidence that worker-owned businesses can operate at scale. He notes that pay differences within the organization are far smaller than those common in many conventional corporations.
• Citizens’ assemblies: Groups of ordinary people selected by lottery who deliberate on public issues, often with facilitation and access to relevant experts. Lent argues that this approach can give decision-making power to citizens and produce thoughtful recommendations.
• Ireland’s abortion referendum process: Lent describes a citizens’ assembly’s deliberations on abortion as an example of a difficult issue being considered through a transparent public process, followed by a referendum in which about two-thirds of voters supported the recommendation.

How to help a transition take hold

The discussion suggests several practical approaches:

• Find and support existing alternatives—cooperatives, participatory governance projects, and other initiatives organized around shared wellbeing.
• Connect these efforts with one another. Isolated projects can become more resilient and influential when they form networks.
• Keep alternative ideas available and concrete. During periods of crisis, the ideas already developed and practiced may shape what becomes politically possible.
• Build relationships across disagreement. Rather than treating opponents as enemies or trying to defeat them in argument, listen for the pain, needs, and hopes beneath their positions. Lent argues that people often share fundamental wishes for health, respect, and a good future for their families.
• Resist polarization and “othering.” A new order built through deeper separation risks reproducing the very divisions it seeks to overcome.
• Care for personal and collective wellbeing. The speakers frame self-care and shared care as resources for sustained participation, not as distractions from social change.

Collapse, uncertainty, and resilience

Wilson asks whether the old system must collapse before a new one can emerge. Lent says that major change is underway, but the precise path is uncertain. He warns that total collapse could mean enormous human suffering, and argues that the goal should not be to welcome catastrophe. Instead, he uses the image of an unraveling rug: as the old pattern loosens, there may be a chance to reweave it into something different before it comes completely apart.

The closing discussion turns to how to live through this unsettled period. Lent describes acknowledging grief, fear, and despair rather than denying them, while not letting those feelings dictate everything. Sharing these emotions with others and acting together can help people feel less helpless and participate in shaping what comes next.

Speakers and sources mentioned

Speakers

• Sarah Wilson — host and interviewer.
• Jeremy Lent — author and systems thinker.

People, works, and concepts mentioned in the discussion

• Margaret Thatcher — associated with the phrase “There Is No Alternative” (TINA).
• Antonio Gramsci — cultural hegemony.
• Darcia Narvaez — the human evolved niche (the name is auto-captioned as “Darian Narvis”).
• Francis Bacon, René Descartes, and Galileo — figures associated with the scientific revolution and modern worldview.
• Ilya Prigogine — referenced in the discussion of systems change and transformation (auto-captioned as “Ilia Priagene”).
• Fritjof Capra — systems theory.
• Milton Friedman and the Mont Pelerin Society — discussed in connection with the rise of neoliberalism.
• Richard Dawkins and The Selfish Gene — discussed in relation to claims about human selfishness.
• Steven Pinker — mentioned as an example of a public intellectual associated with dominant narratives.
• Aristotle — referenced in the discussion of democracy.
• The Overton window — the range of ideas considered politically acceptable.
• The adaptive cycle model, reciprocal causality, citizens’ assemblies, and Internal Family Systems (IFS) — concepts or practices discussed.
• Jeremy Lent’s books: The Patterning Instinct, The Web of Meaning, and Ecocivilization.